We're moving on now to the roundtable.
Isabel Calzas is going to be the moderator.
Helena Carvalho is going to be the head of
documentation service from the Universidad Aberta from Lisbon.
We have Maria Boller, the head of the Universidad Politécnica.
And we have Javier Soto, the head of the Universidad Politécnica.
Good morning.
We're going to close this event with this roundtable.
I have next to me Pablo de Castro.
He has already been introduced this morning.
But he's an open access advocacy librarian
from the University Strathclyde in Glasgow.
He works in academic communications for research.
He is trained in the open access promotion for research.
He has worked in the use of persistent identifiers or indicators.
And he has worked in international projects.
He also participates actively in the development of policies and best practices
in order to make it easier for the dissemination of scientific knowledge.
Maria Boller has studied Hispanic studies or Spanish studies.
And he has a master's from biblioteconomy and scientific
documentation by the Universidad Complementense de Madrid.
She has had a highlighted career in the university libraries.
She has experience as a sports documentalist in Telemadrid.
And there she has had several positions.
So, from 2021, she's the head of the area of library, remote
education and remote education cabinet and UPM press publishing.
And she has led automation management
processes from electronic resources.
She's also part of the permanent commission of the open science.
And then Madalena Carvalho, she has studied history
and she has a master's in document sciences.
From 2011, she's the head of the documentation
services from the Universidad de Alberta.
She has promoted the creation, preservation and dissemination
of knowledge from the Universidad de Alberta, from Lisbon.
And she has specially worked in the management of
the institutional repository, Repositorio Alberto,
where she is leading the project on open educational resources.
From 2015, she has worked as a member in the area of open science
in the LEAD, the long distance education and e-learning lab.
She's also an advisor for quality and a
manager as a process of educational resources,
member of several publishing committees and scientific committees.
And what I wanted to ask is, I think some things
regarding Pablo's presentation were left to say.
I think in many Spanish universities and mainly in our
case, the infrastructure support and research are very weak.
We all have several services. I have asked to review a survey about this.
And we are migrating from different services.
And in our repository, we have just opened the research portal.
And the service for support to research is implementing a CRIS that
is not just a homemade, but it's the owner kind of like of CRIS.
You have talked about the models that work, but the
reality is that we have a lot of infrastructures.
And how can we make those infrastructures
to be communicated among each other?
And how can we promote open access and open science?
Thank you for the question.
I think the CRIS is usually is part of the implementation process
of a more or less understandable system in an institution.
Trying to connect it to what existed before,
which is usually very different from each other.
It has the human resources department,
it has students, it has projects.
And the ideal thing would be for the whole information
to be accessible in just one single system.
Even though it is interlinked, interconnected, and even if it is described
in a deeper way in other systems, we should have it in a public way.
Most of these systems require an authentication, internal ones I mean.
And this is not open science, as we said.
So, we would need to integrate whenever
it's possible our external network.
At least here in our country, I don't know
how it would happen in other countries.
It's usually different services, support to
research and more about projects and funding.
And you do the publications and everything, so putting
all those mechanisms and platforms together is complex.
That's why I was mentioning the social and human
interoperability, because the technical one is the easiest one.
What's hard is to put in the table several services.
Yeah, that's also interoperability.
And Magdalena, I would like to ask you a little bit
about how open science policies are in your country.
And what's the experience in your university
after having been in others for some days?
In Portugal, the implementation of open science policies has
advanced in the last years, although it still faces challenges.
In Portugal, they started in 2003 with the creation
of the repository of the university in which I work.
In 2018, we've had a national council combining the
structural institution of the funding entity in Portugal.
We have created the project of the repository of open science.
It has been an organization that has done a joint effort in the creation and
development of repositories of different universities and resources for research.
It is a very important project when it comes to
the aggregation and creation of the joint work,
mostly because I have been in this project since 2008, and it has
been a very important support for the technical infrastructure,
but also the collaboration kind of work component has been what has
created that all the universities that are really willing to participate,
but they don't have the technical means to
create their own repository could work together.
The work from 2008 until now has been a collaboration
work with a great focus in the professionals of libraries,
the library workers and the staff, the ones
that know more about the information sciences,
because they have had this willingness of working with the technical requirements
that have been needed in order to carry out the conversation towards open science.
The repository is a guarantee for the integration of all
repositories of universities and information centers in Portugal.
It is a very interesting repository of all the resources
in Portugal, because it creates a portal, the RECAP,
it is a service for the accommodation of institutional repositories, studies,
communication service and participation service of the professionals.
In this moment, the portal adds open access related to the national entities
of superior study and scientific journals and other research organizations.
that are in development about the scientific condition of the country and also to
command visibility, accessibility and diffusion of the results of the academic activity.
and scientific investigation with open access and also to integrate
Portugal in the other of international initiatives in this field.
The RECAP portal makes available 334 contents, 38 journals,
publications, 27 institutional repositories that are in the SARI,
it adds OASIS-VR through the interoperability and for both editors,
the Catholic University of Portugal and the University of Portugal.
One of the functionalities is the service of the common repository,
that is a repository for the institutions that have no repository.
Inside this RECAP portal, a community has been created to
which the researchers that have no scientific repository,
can put their own contents and their own production in this community of repositories
and like this to accomplish the requirements of the financiers of the Open Science.
So, basically, these are the functions of the RECAP
portal and the commitment with Open Science in Portugal,
we are generally talking since 2008 with the creation of RECAP portal that was a political
decision to make all the media be able to share the knowledge and to promote this tool.
We have a Ministry Council resolution from 2016 that defines the principles
for the implementation of international politics for Open Science,
the administration of science, technology and higher education based on the principles
for international agreement for Open Science and this has been implemented in Portugal.
So, the access to knowledge is said to be a fundamental
right and an assessment factor of social mobility.
The community is associated to the
production and creation of knowledge.
We think the society must have a responsible role that is very
important in promotion, assessment and diffusion of the knowledge.
The politics, well, the policies have not been published yet, but I don't think
that the politics of Open Science is going to be published during this week.
because it is happening right now in Portugal
an event, the Software Open Science Conference,
that is the event of the 15th Conference of Software in
Open Science that is organized by Portugal and Brazil,
the Portugal University of Minho and in Brazil,
followed by the Communications Institute.
So, this conference, this meeting is one year
in Portugal and the other year is in Brazil
and we have been doing it for two and three years.
We've done it in Mozambique and Mozambique
and the idea is to gather all the
professionals, all the open access professionals
and to talk about its implementation not just in Portugal
but also in other countries like Angola, Mozambique
and other countries in which they speak Portuguese.
So, we've made a path in this way and we are, there are many
institutions that have different guides about Open Science.
Many of them have definitions about scientific
publications, the articles about books.
and little of them, I think just one or two,
have policies related to the publication data.
Many of them have just recommendations,
others have just Open Science policies.
that gather all the different bases of the Open
Science, but they are waiting for the LCT politics
so that the different politics can share the same values.
This is our Open University, we have a policy
of open access that is compulsory since 2010,
but we do not have yet a generic area that
can talk about all the Open Science politics.
Open Science politics says that all the authors must present
their productions since the citation of the publication.
The politics includes, well, the validation
of the writings is linked to the repository.
A publication must have the identification of the repository.
In relation to data, we have, related to
data, we have recommendations, instructions
and there the library gives support on
the training and in the information.
And training and information have been the two pillars of our project.
So, yes, we are waiting for it and I hope
these politics all create the same values.
We will be listening to it because we are also
working in this politics, so it is very interesting.
Yes, please.
So, just to add to the previous question, to integrate
all the systems and all the units, all the people here.
It is easier the smaller the university is.
I have been there a couple of years ago and
the library has its CRIS, its open code.
And when I was there, the person
related to projects came to talk to me.
We had a transfer from technology, the
vice-rector, and they had set up a work team
with all the services that is part of the visibilization
task that was being done in the university.
And I don't know if that's led by the library
or not, but the library is on the table.
Sorry, can someone hand over a microphone?
So, as for our repository in CRIS, like Pablo has said, that's a project
that is led by the Department of Administration and Transference.
And in our daily work, we have the vice-rector
department, the university library, and the IT department.
We have periodic meetings in which we set up the priorities for our
work and the criteria and besides the most, let's say, formal options.
In the end, it's five, six, seven people,
depending on what you're counting on.
But the communication is very easy, very simple.
So, we try to have a direct communication.
Yeah, the only thing is that these examples
of good practices are very little documented.
Yeah, you just happen to find it, but it's much
more documented about systems and technical problems
because people from IT usually explain about this, but this
specific solution for each institution, if we're lucky,
unless one starts talking to someone in
the hallways, it's almost never documented.
But now you know the UPLGC is a good example of that.
Well, as collaboration projects, we're also in a
consortium, Maria Boyer from the Politecnica University,
it's part together with the UNED, with the Madroño
Consortium of Public Universities in Madrid.
And we have worked together in many
other times in open science projects.
Do you think this collaboration can help with the
implementation in the future of open science, Maria?
Thank you, Isabel. Well, I think it's essential.
In open science, which is a complex example, and it's a social
revolution, or it will be so, a revolution for research, etc.
We have needed to start from the base of collaboration
that already existed, which was libraries.
Libraries have always collaborated, so I think embracing
open science was very easy for libraries when it comes to,
first of all, giving a structure to information
on the one hand, and on the other hand,
to make it available for people that's
well organized so that it's accessible,
that seemed to be very clear goals in the DNA of libraries themselves.
That's why I think libraries very quickly embraced
open science, at least university libraries.
And at least that has been the case in Spain.
Well, I think the fact that we are sharing resources and
knowledge is essential for the performance of open science.
Something that's also essential is
creating infrastructures that are common.
And we will talk about Madroño later,
but while they are common resources,
we are going through the open science, not through the sideways.
And there's something else. It's the fact
that libraries are quite Evangelical, right?
In the sense that we are missionaries,
we're very overwhelming sometimes.
We go after researchers, we help with
training, we help to raise awareness.
And what has the example from the change
of the regulation in Aneca proved?
So, despite everything that everyone has
complained to Aneca and to SESIC as well, we have been able to do so.
And when we have had many researchers,
because researchers are researching,
they don't always know what's the regulation
context in which they have to work on,
or what's the service context, even of their own
university, sometimes they don't know about that.
So, when we've had them come last minute, there have
been infrastructures that had already been
working, and they have solved this problem.
Therefore, I think the collaboration among libraries
in order to implement open science is essential.
Because if we don't do so, this topic is so big,
it encompasses so many things that we could not be facing this alone.
There are libraries that because of their
nature, when I talk about libraries,
I mean university libraries, because that's a bias they usually have.
So, because of the nature of universities themselves,
as we said here in the one from Las Palmas,
the communication between departments is
quite easy, and due to political leadership,
there are other libraries here, and I
look at Antonio, and I look at myself,
there are other universities in which
the collaboration between departments
and the infrastructure is so complex inside the university itself,
even if there is not a base of strong collaboration,
we could not be tackling such complex projects.
And yes, of course, I believe collaboration is essential.
Yeah, proof of that is to talk about our portal.
Yeah, you can talk about it.
Okay, should I start? Okay.
So, more successful examples of this collaboration
could be highlighted in three aspects.
On the one hand, it would be the whole work that we've done from Revu.
Raúl is here as well.
He's the person in charge of the Open Science line in Revu,
and that's essential because he's working with the state institutions.
He worked with the CIF, with ANECA, and
many other institutions for the development,
precisely to make cohesive how policies scroll down,
how decisions scroll down when it comes
to actually achieving good real goals.
Madroño is another example, and OpenAIRE is another
example of libraries that have worked on it a lot.
In the case of Madroño, we started with
the science portal a long time ago,
so it was one of the first repositories,
but our perspective at the time was that,
well, each one of us will create their own repository,
and then we set up a service layer on top of that, and that's it.
But when we thought about tackling data, Open
Science, we thought, "Okay, that's not the way to go.
The way to go is actually the opposite.".
It's a common infrastructure that we can later on individually handle.
because there's an underlying situation of support
for the researcher that has to be customized.
And I talk from my own experience, but it is
not easy to support a researcher in engineering.
It's not easy at all.
So, if I wanted to support anyone when it
comes to legislation or social science,
I would also not do it very well, but the research data
that we have from the applied sciences are very complex.
So, it requires from part of the infrastructure
of the library that's more specialized to do that,
but the infrastructure underneath needs to be common.
So, the example of the data repository from Madroño
is an example of the success that we have had in it.
It is true that we're still missing some way to go.
We're missing some acknowledgement or being more known,
but there are policies that force
researchers to create those repositories,
or maybe they find out 10 years later
that that was necessary or compulsory,
and in that case, they are developing many more services.
The infrastructures are very important,
but the human factor, the ability, is also important.
And in Portugal, we had the technical infrastructure,
but within the CAP project and the work that we did all together,
we did work all together, and there's
another thing that exists in Portugal,
that is the ability to react to a movement of professionals,
to be able to make the professionals able
to work on different aspects of the science,
so that we can, we professionals, people
from the libraries, researchers, or whatever,
so that we can support the researchers
that are inside the universities.
So, the will to transmit knowledge, this has
been a very, very interesting experience,
and a very important experience.
I just wanted to say that we have in Portugal
a forum in management of research data.
It's a group of professionals from many
disciplines, libraries, science managers, and so on,
that is shared in different groups, competencies, politics, fair data,
and that it gathers, well, they meet all the months,
and every year they do a management research data forum.
So, with this, many hundreds of professionals
from Portugal and even from Spain,
they go to this forum to share knowledge of their
own field about management of information data.
I just wanted to say, to think about, and talk about
the future of open science after these two days.
What do you think that we, where are we going to get?
Well, but I think, I don't want to ask
you, because you already explained,
for this work together that you have as a country.
How do you think is the future of the libraries?
How do you think they're going to change
in the future of the open science?
How is this going to future going to reach us?
Do we have yet a lot to do?
So, I think it's something that's progressive.
It's something that has been done a lot already,
and I think there's an element of capabilities that's
very important for library workers, library staff.
It's more of a desire or an expectation
than a prediction or a forecast,
but I'd like to see the library staff more
integrated with scientific activity in institutions.
And I'm moved mainly by curiosity and for the
pride about what's being done in their institution.
For example, I started to study in Oxford,
and it's not the best moment for a national community,
union citizen, as they call it there,
but after what happened with everything about
the vaccine, we've all felt pride about that.
Wherever we were from, that thing of feeling our colors,
it's a bit of topic that I would like
to see more participation in libraries,
because I think that the debate in many
fields is too biased from humanities.
I'm a physicist, so I might explain a little bit about the bias.
But we usually tend to forget the pure or natural sciences,
let's say because they seem harder to understand,
and I would like to see more Harmony between library and research groups
in order to understand how fluxes work or
flows work in different research projects
and being able to give some input to people writing proposals
and getting to know the different parts, because no one does this.
So, each one has their own niche,
and the library has a more holistic view of
what's happening, of the whole situation.
So, that is where a big part of the opportunities could come from,
and they're there in order to work together for the open science app.
Well, as Eva has said, what I think is going to change us is AI.
So, we live in a world of revolutions in
which predicting what's going to happen,
predicting the future or foreseeing the future is basically impossible.
So, I completely agree with what Pablo has said,
and I think institutions in Spain, university
institutions in Spain, have to evolve.
They have to evolve quite a lot because they're still in many cases.
very anchored to a structure that is more canonic
when it comes to the academic organization
and internal organization and administration
of what the world is demanding from us.
So, since we are a library that is quite implicated with hard sciences,
not really applied sciences, because the ones
that are applied for me are incredibly hard,
and it is true that we work a lot in
trying to work with the research teams,
but sometimes we find that they are too isolated.
So, that is something that will also evolve
because I think institutions for research
will change a lot, at least from what we know about them now,
because of the disruptive changes in
technology, but also because of funding issues.
So, the Spanish system will not be sustainable in the future,
and specifically, especially with the policies that we have right now,
this system of 60-something public
universities will have to be deeply transformed
in its structure or foundations, and that
maybe will allow a higher permeability
among the profiles of a researcher, academic support, manager.
Allow me a small joke, as I always remember Teresa Mano de Molina,
she is great by the way, and she used
to say that sometimes library staff.
is seen just like in Harry Potter, domestic elves.
If you get to Hogwarts in your first book, and everything is magic,
everything is big halls filled with food, made beds,
and everything works wonderfully in that castle because of magic,
but in the second book you realize that magic has its tricks,
and what is behind magic is domestic elves,
and it's domestic elves that are the ones
cooking behind and doing things behind scenes.
So, sometimes library workers are domestic
elves, and when I talk about library staff,
I also talk about IT technicians, because
they give such an invisible infrastructure
that most people don't see, but everyone
here is currently living from the fact
that there are people who are connected, that are
managing the network, that are managing many things.
So, there must be a higher permeability, of course,
but I also think that this will be something.
that needs to sociologically evolve in the big
research infrastructures, at least in Spain.
I wanted to make a small note on AI, because
most things that we've heard about AI
last day sounds more like a threat than
an opportunity, but I wanted to say that
there is a database that maybe some of you know, that it's AI-based,
and it has stored all the research articles
that exist, and it has been published.
By the way, it's German, so a researcher or
a postdoc or a PhD student comes and says,
"Hey, I have this that I want to publish,
to which journal should I send this?
" If they ask it to their senior, they will
send them to their, let's say, shady journals,
because you know about the seniors, you know
what happens, but if you ask the
libraries, maybe they can give you that.
It's a database that's only for open source or open access libraries
that has been funded by the German universities,
and it's enough with the title and an abstract,
and it can tell you what are the most indicated journals for this.
This is just a small example of what AI can do for us.
Usually, it should be the library that's
the one up to speed to these things
to try to include them in the support work that we do for researchers.
So, not everything is threats. I just wanted to say that.
So, Madalena, you've talked about training.
What do you think are going to be the competences
that a library worker has to develop in this context?
We know that they're already happening.
Well, AI is not as important as human intelligence.
And humans that are in the libraries, we have to have
a global vision of what we want for our services.
We have to certify that we know what we
can and we must use all the tools of AI,
to educate and make them able in our libraries to give trainings,
offer trainings for the use of these tools.
Offer disponibility is very important.
Student, researcher, if they know they
can count on us, on our competences, it's very important for them.
We have to certify that we have them.
We have to look for them anywhere that we need
and offer them as a service of our community.
And even more important than for new
libraries, than manage the resources,
is to manage spaces, to manage books, to
manage loans, is to manage global knowledge.
So, to know the resources that can be connected.
Not all of them are bought.
There are many, many, many resources in open access.
that we can bring to our sites, to our libraries,
and let them know, let our users know them.
And even more than manage spaces, it's about
managing the knowledge and be part of the knowledge.
Because people from the libraries can be part of the knowledge.
I don't want...
It's not just a paper to influence on the policies,
but we can do real proposals for the politics.
So, to propose politics about the data, according
to my experience in the Open University,
this matter about the data impacted a lot.
And also, the open access impacted a lot
on a proposal that started on the rector
and started to enable these resources in the repository.
Right now, 24% of the resources of the whole
repositories are open educational resources.
And all the contents have a certification
that allows that they can be downloaded
and looked for through the interoperability that the repository has
with the medical reference or open ed or whatever.
But this little work of putting around
3000 resources to the repository.
and make available all the files so that
whoever wants, they can look for the documents,
access them and download them according
to the requirements of the license.
It is important to do a parallel work with the
authors, of course, explaining them the licenses.
This is because they usually are afraid, I don't
know which is my license, but let us explain it.
And then, we will be the top management.
But if we don't have this human component, then we will reach it.
We will be just books and spaces managers.
But we need to be managers of more things.
Because if not, we will be irrelevant and that's not the case.
Okay, so if you'd like to ask anything to
the speakers, we can open up the session,
open up the floor for questions.
I'm sorry, I'm going to be the main
person who asks questions in this event.
But we need to make the most of them being here.
First of all, first comment, I admire Portugal
because I have worked with Eloy de Nino several times.
And collaboration work has made that Portugal,
when it comes to open science and open context, to be a reference.
So, also congratulations to libraries about
what you do in open science, very well done.
But I am also a researcher, I'm not a library's speaker.
But I think there's something that has to do with what Pablo has said,
we should have a higher projection with communication,
not only doing the work of the researcher,
for example, the delegate deposit, at least
we should give the option of doing it.
But I have known people that have found
out there were things in their repository
without knowing that there were.
But in the case of data, I've been doing training for last years,
it's impossible for the library to do that.
In fact, it is being done, but the risk, the quality of the metadata,
the data that's there and the information
that's given there is very poor
because then the data might not be understood.
So, that openness of the library towards
the researcher or the scientific community,
I think that should be a bit lighter in the sense that there were more.
And then we're talking about researchers, but young people,
even the ones that have not graduated yet,
there's an important market there to get to them.
Because the one that's used to, let's say, bad
practices, or let's say conservative practices,
I think we should have a training campaign there as well.
And as an example, since I'm coming from a research study from the SIC,
because it's a collector of 126 research
studies from the Canary Islands until Galicia,
we are from Severo Ochoa, and we have done
a calling that's called "Publimpicas",
which is for the pre and post PhD students, and
there will be some award for the best publication
that also needs to be open and needs to be in
the repository that they should have done it.
It is measured with metrics that do not belong to commercial brands.
They need to use Open Annex to see what's being
collected and the citations that appear there.
So, there has been also a training campaign with the
incentive of that award that will be given in Christmas.
But has that been done by the researchers or by the library?
From the researchers, right? Yeah, from the
management and the management of the Severo Ochoa.
That has also been an open door we have generated,
let's say, some guidelines of how to do that.
And so far, we've had people joining, so
it's a way to open the open resources.
In this case, I'm talking about a research center
that has between the whole staff about 300 or 400.
Not all of them are pre or post PhD students, but it's
a way to open up the system to invite to participation
by opening up the resources that we've had.
But going back to the first topic, please make the data.
It's facilitated by the researchers
so that they can add that information.
Because in Revion, we're working about the data.
We're working on that.
And when one tries to collect data to know what's the
data that's available, first of all, they're a mess.
But it's data that is not data.
It's pictures of charts, reports that are tagged
as data sets, and that's not the way to do it.
And in any way, we should have
dissemination, communication, and incentives.
I think that's important.
I'm not going to ask any more questions now.
Well, let me tell you, Remy, first of all, thank you about the comment.
It's two examples from England, the University of
Lancaster was doing some work and they control it.
The metadata is there.
But the metadata is done by the researchers.
What the university does is to promote the
peer-to-peer conversation, inviting people with talent.
They give them some pizzas and they start talking among each other.
And the library moderates a little bit to show good practices
that they know so that they can talk amongst each other.
That's in Lancaster.
And in Manchester University, they have an open science
office or open research office, that's how they call it there,
that the library leads, but it has participation
from other instances in that institution.
And they have achieved money in order to fund projects
internally that have been proposed by researchers.
The most stimulating projects in the field of open science
can be funded by this open science office in the university.
And there are many interesting things there, from
criminology, for example, for different fingerprint projects.
They have come up with an idea for that and that has been funded
at least partially in that office or open science in the university
that will mainly be done by the library.
So, there are examples, not here, but also
let me tell you one here from Logroño.
We are doing that, trying to implement changes in the repository
of data, that I don't know if it's an ensemble of the José Madroño,
and the 24th of this month, we will have a data day in the consortium
that's targeted not only to library staff, but also researchers.
And I think we will have these topics.
María, I don't know if you want to talk about it.
Yes, this event is in the Politécnica University
and that is done in a room that has about 260 seats.
And we are also going to broadcast it through
streaming and we don't have any more spots left.
So, that has created a lot of interest among researchers.
We do this kind of event very often and it is true that
maybe there will be data sets that are not well deposited,
maybe because of lack of interest from the researchers,
but there are others that are being well deposited
and the data analysis is very strict, at least from what I
can talk about, the IT field, telecommunications field, etc.
It is hard because, as I said, very often researchers are
tired of having to make proposals and make evaluations
and do a lot of administrative work from the management
of their project and sometimes even economic ones.
So, when you tell them, hey, but you need to
deposit this or you have to organize this or that,
it's not that they don't want to,
it's just that it's over their heads.
At least that's the impression I've gotten from it.
And it takes a lot of effort from us to sit down
with the researchers and say, hey, what is this for?
What is this? How do you want to deposit it? Etc.
And I think it's something that also needs to start working.
Rome was not built in a couple of days
and we need to give it a bit more time.
And I think in the times that we're living in,
it seems that everything has to be immediate
and everything seems to need to be ready
because the future is already late.
I'm already late for everything.
But the truth is that the access to open science is starting to settle.
And after that, we will have a deeper review on
open science and a lot more structure to the data.
So, let us give enough time for things to happen.
I don't know if there's any other question.
We're already out of time.